Re: [chimera-dev] monitor suitable for stereo visualization in Chimera
Hi Wei, The computers can run different operating systems. But almost all VR is done on Windows 10. It can be made to work on Linux and Mac but there are many problems using VR on those operating systems. Tom
On Jan 30, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Wei Zhang <zhangwei@umn.edu> wrote:
Tom,
This is terrific and so exciting! The movie you attached in the previous email must be what the second person see during a "meeting" session. About the meeting to sync the to sessions. All the computers have to run on the same type of operating system, ie. not mixed with PC-Mac-Linux, right?
I am happy I reached out to the Chimera group about stereo display and now see this new opportunity.
Thanks!
Wei
On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 8:34 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote: Hi Wei,
We do routinely do 2 person VR sessions, and have sometimes done 3 or 4. Each VR headset has to be connected to a separate computer. This is a limitation of the current VR driver technology where it only allows communicating with one attached headset. So for two or more people, each start ChimeraX and VR on separate computers and use a command "meeting" to sync the to sessions. Each person sees the other persons VR hand controller cones and an image of the other person's face and these track the person's movement so it is easy to point to parts of the structures, and each person can move the models and change them. I should make a video showing multiperson VR like that opioids video. Here is another VR video that shows some 2 person VR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4lDzUEUFL0&feature=youtu.be
More about VR for molecules and cells is at the UCSF VR web site
I develop the ChimeraX VR capabilities and they have a long ways to go, but also a lot of potential. The RTX 2080 Ti is the best graphics you can get for VR.
Tom
On Jan 30, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Wei Zhang <zhangwei@umn.edu> wrote:
Tom,
This movie itself is magic! You can merge the operator with the molecule in the movie ---- VR world and the real world are merged together, that is amazing!
It is so delightful to see this movie, making me want to go away from the old system right now and embrace the new one.
With the VR system, is it possible to have two people see the same view of the object as we did with the old system? I guess it takes two sets of VR system, but without a mouse cursor, how can we see the same view and points to the same place?
Thanks so much for the detailed and professional description about old and new stereo systems. I guess when the old technology is dying out, we have no choice but to keep up with the trend. I have to read and learn more in order to make a wise decision. Your email is a good start.
Thank you,
Wei
On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 6:49 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote: Hi Wei,
Unfortunately stereoscopic visualization is dying out, hardware vendors are not supporting it. Nvidia 3D Vision which was LCD shutter glasses that worked with many gaming displays (fast refresh displays, e.g. 120 Hz or 144 Hz) was dropped by Nvidia last April, they removed support for it from their graphics drivers. The Zalman row interleaved displays were discontinued long ago. Here is old info about Nvidia 3D for Chimera, and also old information about PyMol stereo display
https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/Outreach/technotes/3dvision.html
https://pymolwiki.org/index.php/Stereo_3D_Display_Options
We still have a stereo projector system working with Chimera and ChimeraX that uses RealD CE4S LCD shutter glasses (http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/ce4s.html) and an old StereoGraphics EXXR IR emitter (http://www.ultimate3dheaven.com/crst.html). The emitter connects to a 3-pin DIN connector available on some old Nvidia Quadro graphics cards. We use a P6000 which has a daughter board to provide the 3-pin DIN signal that syncs the glasses with the left and right eye displayed images. I'm not sure any of this is sold anymore, but maybe you could get it and maybe it would work, but not with 2080Ti graphics.
We use virtual reality for stereoscopic display in ChimeraX (https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/chimerax/docs/user/vr.html). Here's a YouTube video showing it being used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCotNi6213w). This isn't very similar to the older stereo systems because it blocks your view of everything and requires all new user interface since you can't use the mouse and keyboard easily with VR. But it does provide even better stereoscopic depth perception than the old systems.
In short, you can probably do old stereo with lcd or polarized glasses if you are going to go to a great deal of trouble working with unsupported hardware. Since no one uses this stuff, the graphics drivers also have lots of trouble delivering the images -- we have problems every year keeping our stereo projection system working in the face of updated graphics drivers that no longer work with stereo and 2 displays.
If you still want to pursue the old stereo, Ken Satuyshur at University of Wisconsin has a few systems working and you could ask him for more info.
Tom
On Jan 29, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Wei Zhang <zhangwei@umn.edu> wrote:
Hi Elaine and Tom,
I am trying to build a GPU workstation that mostly focuses on computation, ie. I want to have 4 2080Ti GPU cards. But I think these GPU cards do not support 3D visualization. One colleague of mine has such a workstation and he uses Zaleman monitor and can display the stereo map using Chimera. Zakeman monitor is out of market for a number of years, I am wondering if you are aware of any other type monitor that can be used for this purpose.
Thank you,
Wei _______________________________________________ Chimera-dev mailing list Chimera-dev@cgl.ucsf.edu http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-dev
Thanks Tom. Yes, I see your notes on the Chimera webpage. I asked the question because I will put the Linux workstation in the same room of a PC. I do have a Windows 10 machine and I am thinking of testing out ChimeraX and VR. Cheers, Wei On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:42 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote:
Hi Wei,
The computers can run different operating systems. But almost all VR is done on Windows 10. It can be made to work on Linux and Mac but there are many problems using VR on those operating systems.
Tom
On Jan 30, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Wei Zhang <zhangwei@umn.edu> wrote:
Tom,
This is terrific and so exciting! The movie you attached in the previous email must be what the second person see during a "meeting" session. About the meeting to sync the to sessions. All the computers have to run on the same type of operating system, ie. not mixed with PC-Mac-Linux, right?
I am happy I reached out to the Chimera group about stereo display and now see this new opportunity.
Thanks!
Wei
On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 8:34 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote:
Hi Wei,
We do routinely do 2 person VR sessions, and have sometimes done 3 or 4. Each VR headset has to be connected to a separate computer. This is a limitation of the current VR driver technology where it only allows communicating with one attached headset. So for two or more people, each start ChimeraX and VR on separate computers and use a command "meeting" to sync the to sessions. Each person sees the other persons VR hand controller cones and an image of the other person's face and these track the person's movement so it is easy to point to parts of the structures, and each person can move the models and change them. I should make a video showing multiperson VR like that opioids video. Here is another VR video that shows some 2 person VR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4lDzUEUFL0&feature=youtu.be
More about VR for molecules and cells is at the UCSF VR web site
I develop the ChimeraX VR capabilities and they have a long ways to go, but also a lot of potential. The RTX 2080 Ti is the best graphics you can get for VR.
Tom
On Jan 30, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Wei Zhang <zhangwei@umn.edu> wrote:
Tom,
This movie itself is magic! You can merge the operator with the molecule in the movie ---- VR world and the real world are merged together, that is amazing!
It is so delightful to see this movie, making me want to go away from the old system right now and embrace the new one.
With the VR system, is it possible to have two people see the same view of the object as we did with the old system? I guess it takes two sets of VR system, but without a mouse cursor, how can we see the same view and points to the same place?
Thanks so much for the detailed and professional description about old and new stereo systems. I guess when the old technology is dying out, we have no choice but to keep up with the trend. I have to read and learn more in order to make a wise decision. Your email is a good start.
Thank you,
Wei
On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 6:49 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote:
Hi Wei,
Unfortunately stereoscopic visualization is dying out, hardware vendors are not supporting it. Nvidia 3D Vision which was LCD shutter glasses that worked with many gaming displays (fast refresh displays, e.g. 120 Hz or 144 Hz) was dropped by Nvidia last April, they removed support for it from their graphics drivers. The Zalman row interleaved displays were discontinued long ago. Here is old info about Nvidia 3D for Chimera, and also old information about PyMol stereo display
https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/Outreach/technotes/3dvision.html
https://pymolwiki.org/index.php/Stereo_3D_Display_Options
We still have a stereo projector system working with Chimera and ChimeraX that uses RealD CE4S LCD shutter glasses ( http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/ce4s.html) and an old StereoGraphics EXXR IR emitter ( http://www.ultimate3dheaven.com/crst.html). The emitter connects to a 3-pin DIN connector available on some old Nvidia Quadro graphics cards. We use a P6000 which has a daughter board to provide the 3-pin DIN signal that syncs the glasses with the left and right eye displayed images. I'm not sure any of this is sold anymore, but maybe you could get it and maybe it would work, but not with 2080Ti graphics.
We use virtual reality for stereoscopic display in ChimeraX ( https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/chimerax/docs/user/vr.html). Here's a YouTube video showing it being used ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCotNi6213w). This isn't very similar to the older stereo systems because it blocks your view of everything and requires all new user interface since you can't use the mouse and keyboard easily with VR. But it does provide even better stereoscopic depth perception than the old systems.
In short, you can probably do old stereo with lcd or polarized glasses if you are going to go to a great deal of trouble working with unsupported hardware. Since no one uses this stuff, the graphics drivers also have lots of trouble delivering the images -- we have problems every year keeping our stereo projection system working in the face of updated graphics drivers that no longer work with stereo and 2 displays.
If you still want to pursue the old stereo, Ken Satuyshur at University of Wisconsin has a few systems working and you could ask him for more info.
Tom
On Jan 29, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Wei Zhang <zhangwei@umn.edu> wrote:
Hi Elaine and Tom,
I am trying to build a GPU workstation that mostly focuses on computation, ie. I want to have 4 2080Ti GPU cards. But I think these GPU cards do not support 3D visualization. One colleague of mine has such a workstation and he uses Zaleman monitor and can display the stereo map using Chimera. Zakeman monitor is out of market for a number of years, I am wondering if you are aware of any other type monitor that can be used for this purpose.
Thank you,
Wei _______________________________________________ Chimera-dev mailing list Chimera-dev@cgl.ucsf.edu http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-dev
Wei, There are also options available if you want to provide stereo viewing to an audience using a video projector. We are currently upgrading our projector at the RBVI to higher def and passive glasses, but haven't yet chosen a specific solution. Regardless, this approach will cost much more than a single monitor or VR headset solution. --tom On 1/30/20 7:42 PM, Tom Goddard wrote:
Hi Wei,
The computers can run different operating systems. But almost all VR is done on Windows 10. It can be made to work on Linux and Mac but there are many problems using VR on those operating systems.
Tom
On Jan 30, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Wei Zhang <zhangwei@umn.edu> wrote:
Tom,
This is terrific and so exciting! The movie you attached in the previous email must be what the second person see during a "meeting" session. About the meeting to sync the to sessions. All the computers have to run on the same type of operating system, ie. not mixed with PC-Mac-Linux, right?
I am happy I reached out to the Chimera group about stereo display and now see this new opportunity.
Thanks!
Wei
On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 8:34 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net <mailto:goddard@sonic.net>> wrote:
Hi Wei,
We do routinely do 2 person VR sessions, and have sometimes done 3 or 4. Each VR headset has to be connected to a separate computer. This is a limitation of the current VR driver technology where it only allows communicating with one attached headset. So for two or more people, each start ChimeraX and VR on separate computers and use a command "meeting" to sync the to sessions. Each person sees the other persons VR hand controller cones and an image of the other person's face and these track the person's movement so it is easy to point to parts of the structures, and each person can move the models and change them. I should make a video showing multiperson VR like that opioids video. Here is another VR video that shows some 2 person VR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4lDzUEUFL0&feature=youtu.be
More about VR for molecules and cells is at the UCSF VR web site
I develop the ChimeraX VR capabilities and they have a long ways to go, but also a lot of potential. The RTX 2080 Ti is the best graphics you can get for VR.
Tom
On Jan 30, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Wei Zhang <zhangwei@umn.edu <mailto:zhangwei@umn.edu>> wrote:
Tom,
This movie itself is magic! You can merge the operator with the molecule in the movie ---- VR world and the real world are merged together, that is amazing!
It is so delightful to see this movie, making me want to go away from the old system right now and embrace the new one.
With the VR system, is it possible to have two people see the same view of the object as we did with the old system? I guess it takes two sets of VR system, but without a mouse cursor, how can we see the same view and points to the same place?
Thanks so much for the detailed and professional description about old and new stereo systems. I guess when the old technology is dying out, we have no choice but to keep up with the trend. I have to read and learn more in order to make a wise decision. Your email is a good start.
Thank you,
Wei
On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 6:49 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net <mailto:goddard@sonic.net>> wrote:
Hi Wei,
Unfortunately stereoscopic visualization is dying out, hardware vendors are not supporting it. Nvidia 3D Vision which was LCD shutter glasses that worked with many gaming displays (fast refresh displays, e.g. 120 Hz or 144 Hz) was dropped by Nvidia last April, they removed support for it from their graphics drivers. The Zalman row interleaved displays were discontinued long ago. Here is old info about Nvidia 3D for Chimera, and also old information about PyMol stereo display
https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/Outreach/technotes/3dvision.html
https://pymolwiki.org/index.php/Stereo_3D_Display_Options
We still have a stereo projector system working with Chimera and ChimeraX that uses RealD CE4S LCD shutter glasses (http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/ce4s.html) and an old StereoGraphics EXXR IR emitter (http://www.ultimate3dheaven.com/crst.html). The emitter connects to a 3-pin DIN connector available on some old Nvidia Quadro graphics cards. We use a P6000 which has a daughter board to provide the 3-pin DIN signal that syncs the glasses with the left and right eye displayed images. I'm not sure any of this is sold anymore, but maybe you could get it and maybe it would work, but not with 2080Ti graphics.
We use virtual reality for stereoscopic display in ChimeraX (https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/chimerax/docs/user/vr.html). Here's a YouTube video showing it being used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCotNi6213w). This isn't very similar to the older stereo systems because it blocks your view of everything and requires all new user interface since you can't use the mouse and keyboard easily with VR. But it does provide even better stereoscopic depth perception than the old systems.
In short, you can probably do old stereo with lcd or polarized glasses if you are going to go to a great deal of trouble working with unsupported hardware. Since no one uses this stuff, the graphics drivers also have lots of trouble delivering the images -- we have problems every year keeping our stereo projection system working in the face of updated graphics drivers that no longer work with stereo and 2 displays.
If you still want to pursue the old stereo, Ken Satuyshur at University of Wisconsin has a few systems working and you could ask him for more info.
Tom
On Jan 29, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Wei Zhang <zhangwei@umn.edu <mailto:zhangwei@umn.edu>> wrote:
Hi Elaine and Tom,
I am trying to build a GPU workstation that mostly focuses on computation, ie. I want to have 4 2080Ti GPU cards. But I think these GPU cards do not support 3D visualization. One colleague of mine has such a workstation and he uses Zaleman monitor and can display the stereo map using Chimera. Zakeman monitor is out of market for a number of years, I am wondering if you are aware of any other type monitor that can be used for this purpose.
Thank you,
Wei _______________________________________________ Chimera-dev mailing list Chimera-dev@cgl.ucsf.edu <mailto:Chimera-dev@cgl.ucsf.edu> http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-dev
_______________________________________________ Chimera-dev mailing list Chimera-dev@cgl.ucsf.edu http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-dev
participants (3)
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Tom Ferrin -
Tom Goddard -
Wei Zhang