Hello all, I apologize if this is skewed for the list; please correct me if so. I am putting together a proposal to set up a 3D/computational lab at our school for the STEM area, with Chimera at the top of the list of applications using it. The general idea is to have 10 workstations and one workstation-server (the server side being used for computational work), with students at each station doing their own things. Does anyone have an idea of the best setup for each station with respect to hardware for viewing in 3D?? I expect our Dell-camp school to go with something like an Inspiron T5610, using an nVidia K4000 card. I was thinking that the nVidia 3D vision system made sense, but honestly don't know if that would work with 10 different ones going at once. I am unfamiliar with other options. Would someone help me with this? There would be two or three students at each station, FWIW. Am I out in left field in my thinking? Cheers, Kenward -- In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be *teachers* and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. - Lee Iacocca
To (hopefully) clarify... On 07/27/2014 10:42 PM, Kenward Vaughan wrote:
Hello all,
I apologize if this is skewed for the list; please correct me if so. ... with something like an Inspiron T5610, using an nVidia K4000 card.
I don't know if this card fits what is needed for sequential stereo. :(
I was thinking that the nVidia 3D vision system made sense, but honestly don't know if that would work with 10 different ones going at once. I am unfamiliar with other options.
Having read the Chimera documentation online, I don't know if the interleaved approach is ideal for people working together in a group ("This works well for a single viewer."). Is this still true with newer monitors (wider angles, etc.)? Since we have the money (big spillover from last year in a grant, and we need to spend it quickly) (tough situation, right??), I figured to go ahead with the sequential approach. But if not the nVidia system, what then? Of course, the passive glasses approach might still be best, as it seems that people couldn't move from screen to screen (seeing others work) without switching glasses. ??? Hate the idea of losing resolution though. The students may not recognize the difference, of course.
Would someone help me with this? There would be two or three students at each station, FWIW. Am I out in left field in my thinking?
Heh. Still feel out of the ballpark. Maybe the same city?? Kenward -- In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be *teachers* and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. - Lee Iacocca
Hi Kenward, I work with S3D extensively, for operations and development. Navigating this can be tricky. Up until recently there have been few standards, making it more like standing on shifting sands dumping money into a pit. The only reliable standard is HDMI 1.4, which at best will get you a max resolution of full 1080p. Using chimera in DTI (side-by-side stereo3D), outputting the graphics as HDMI you are guaranteed half 1080p, the loss is on the horizontal. This will work on consumer grade monitors and projectors, but you have to manually select SBS in your HDMI sink. The sony vll-hw40 ($2400) uses IR playstation-3 glasses; ($20) similar to my setup. I also do IR and passive; have gone through almost 10 systems in 20 years. If you do not go with HDMI, you are on your own, or one-off vendor's options. You can still buy monitors (20-30 inch) which typically use nvidia glasses. We have a visio 80" in the conference room that is passive; people tend to like them because they are lighter and no battery; but you loose vertical resolution. If you want full 1080p you will need to use the frame-pack option; this is what blu-ray uses and what I produce in. This is not a current option in chimera, but we are talking about it and I am developing sw. For movie making I generate in full 1080p and composite a frame pack image playable in quicktime, etc. There are some technical things I won't get into, other than to say the sony projectors will automatically switch into S3D when presented a display of 1920x2205; some monitors do not, and by theHDMI standard they are not required to; expect no help from vendors on this. If you buy a monitor/projector like that you are stuck, because they normally will not allow manual intervention to switch to frame pack. Also sequential stereo is going away, apple dropped quadro support; most vendors think of it as top/bottom stereo. Full T/B is not in the core HDMI 1.4 spec as mandatory, it is an optional compliance with a lot of other S3D formats like quincunx which is supported by visio, but out of business. I would recommend you build a requirements list and where you want to be in one to five years.
From that I can give you more suggestions.
One final note, the S3D market is in contraction, getting the correct vendor is crucial if you do not want to get stuck with a boat anchor. Matthew Dougherty National Center for Macromolecular Imaging Baylor College of Medicine =========================================================================== ________________________________________ From: chimera-users-bounces@cgl.ucsf.edu [chimera-users-bounces@cgl.ucsf.edu] On Behalf Of Kenward Vaughan [kay_jay@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 1:34 AM To: chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu List Subject: Re: [Chimera-users] Setup for 3D workstations? To (hopefully) clarify... On 07/27/2014 10:42 PM, Kenward Vaughan wrote:
Hello all,
I apologize if this is skewed for the list; please correct me if so. ... with something like an Inspiron T5610, using an nVidia K4000 card.
I don't know if this card fits what is needed for sequential stereo. :(
I was thinking that the nVidia 3D vision system made sense, but honestly don't know if that would work with 10 different ones going at once. I am unfamiliar with other options.
Having read the Chimera documentation online, I don't know if the interleaved approach is ideal for people working together in a group ("This works well for a single viewer."). Is this still true with newer monitors (wider angles, etc.)? Since we have the money (big spillover from last year in a grant, and we need to spend it quickly) (tough situation, right??), I figured to go ahead with the sequential approach. But if not the nVidia system, what then? Of course, the passive glasses approach might still be best, as it seems that people couldn't move from screen to screen (seeing others work) without switching glasses. ??? Hate the idea of losing resolution though. The students may not recognize the difference, of course.
Would someone help me with this? There would be two or three students at each station, FWIW. Am I out in left field in my thinking?
Heh. Still feel out of the ballpark. Maybe the same city?? Kenward -- In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be *teachers* and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. - Lee Iacocca _______________________________________________ Chimera-users mailing list Chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-users
For 3D stereo viewing in a lab with multiple systems viewing in stereo at the same time, you need to avoid using an infrared-based system. That means, either an active glasses setup with the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro that uses RF, or a passive glasses setup with a row-interleaved stereo monitor (the same glasses that are used for Reald 3D in movie theaters). The problem with row-interleaved monitors is that Chimera's 2D dialogs are hard to read when looking at the screen with the glasses, so I'd recommend the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro solution if you have the money. And, for Chimera, you will need a NVIDIA Quadro graphics card like the K4000 that you mentioned. See http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-professional-users.html for details. I don't know of any 3D TVs that use RF to control active glasses, so there is no need to explore using 3D TVs, i.e., a HDMI solution is not for you (but for people setting up a single 3D stereo system, a great solution is a Windows 8 computer with an AMD Radeon w/HD3D graphics card, and a 3D TV). HTH, Greg On 07/27/2014 10:42 PM, Kenward Vaughan wrote:
Hello all,
I apologize if this is skewed for the list; please correct me if so.
I am putting together a proposal to set up a 3D/computational lab at our school for the STEM area, with Chimera at the top of the list of applications using it. The general idea is to have 10 workstations and one workstation-server (the server side being used for computational work), with students at each station doing their own things.
Does anyone have an idea of the best setup for each station with respect to hardware for viewing in 3D?? I expect our Dell-camp school to go with something like an Inspiron T5610, using an nVidia K4000 card.
I was thinking that the nVidia 3D vision system made sense, but honestly don't know if that would work with 10 different ones going at once. I am unfamiliar with other options.
Would someone help me with this? There would be two or three students at each station, FWIW. Am I out in left field in my thinking?
Cheers,
Kenward
On 07/28/2014 12:01 PM, Greg Couch wrote:
For 3D stereo viewing in a lab with multiple systems viewing in stereo at the same time, you need to avoid using an infrared-based system. That means, either an active glasses setup with the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro that uses RF, or a passive glasses setup with a row-interleaved stereo monitor (the same glasses that are used for Reald 3D in movie theaters). The problem with row-interleaved monitors is that Chimera's 2D dialogs are hard to read when looking at the screen with the glasses, so I'd recommend the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro solution if you have the money. And, for Chimera, you will need a NVIDIA Quadro graphics card like the K4000 that you mentioned. See http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-professional-users.html for details.
I don't know of any 3D TVs that use RF to control active glasses, so there is no need to explore using 3D TVs, i.e., a HDMI solution is not for you (but for people setting up a single 3D stereo system, a great solution is a Windows 8 computer with an AMD Radeon w/HD3D graphics card, and a 3D TV).
HTH,
Greg
My thanks to both Mathew and you for your replies! After doing some further work on this, I believe I'll be going with the nVidia Pro setup for each station, as soon as I can verify that they are still being made (the contraction you were speaking about, Mathew?). The monitors I plan to get have multiple input types including HDMI-1.4, and work with passive systems as well (in case the Pro stuff dies). I am also drooling over the idea of using a 3D capable TV (one of the newer 4K Sony's or the like, along with passive glasses for the whole class in a small class setting (i.e. not an auditorium). It turns the interleaved images into a normal HD image. If I go that route, is there a reason to use the Radeon card as you mention above instead of the nVidia one? I would want to have things manage the whole available resolution, obviously, but I'm guessing the Radeon does that? I'll see what I can find out-perhaps it has a direct HDMI output... Kenward -- In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be *teachers* and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. - Lee Iacocca
(the contraction you were speaking about, Mathew?) Yes, little disorganized there. I had to go through corporate to let them know their S3D email address contact was bouncing. The size of the manufactures & models compared to 4 years ago is 10-20%. Dell tech support is not responding to direct questions about S3D on their laptops. Sales say all ok. Will find out when delivered. Generally in the industry, tech support is MIA when it deals with S3D. can you send me more details as to nvidia and passive monitors? The vision pro is active usually with Acer monitors
HDMI 1.4 safest position to own equipment. HD 1080p and future improvements will dominate the display industry. Intel builds chips around it.
Matthew Dougherty National Center for Macromolecular Imaging Baylor College of Medicine =========================================================================== ________________________________________ From: chimera-users-bounces@cgl.ucsf.edu [chimera-users-bounces@cgl.ucsf.edu] On Behalf Of Kenward Vaughan [kay_jay@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 8:59 PM To: Greg Couch; chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu List Subject: Re: [Chimera-users] Setup for 3D workstations? On 07/28/2014 12:01 PM, Greg Couch wrote:
For 3D stereo viewing in a lab with multiple systems viewing in stereo at the same time, you need to avoid using an infrared-based system. That means, either an active glasses setup with the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro that uses RF, or a passive glasses setup with a row-interleaved stereo monitor (the same glasses that are used for Reald 3D in movie theaters). The problem with row-interleaved monitors is that Chimera's 2D dialogs are hard to read when looking at the screen with the glasses, so I'd recommend the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro solution if you have the money. And, for Chimera, you will need a NVIDIA Quadro graphics card like the K4000 that you mentioned. See http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-professional-users.html for details.
I don't know of any 3D TVs that use RF to control active glasses, so there is no need to explore using 3D TVs, i.e., a HDMI solution is not for you (but for people setting up a single 3D stereo system, a great solution is a Windows 8 computer with an AMD Radeon w/HD3D graphics card, and a 3D TV).
HTH,
Greg
My thanks to both Mathew and you for your replies! After doing some further work on this, I believe I'll be going with the nVidia Pro setup for each station, as soon as I can verify that they are still being made (the contraction you were speaking about, Mathew?). The monitors I plan to get have multiple input types including HDMI-1.4, and work with passive systems as well (in case the Pro stuff dies). I am also drooling over the idea of using a 3D capable TV (one of the newer 4K Sony's or the like, along with passive glasses for the whole class in a small class setting (i.e. not an auditorium). It turns the interleaved images into a normal HD image. If I go that route, is there a reason to use the Radeon card as you mention above instead of the nVidia one? I would want to have things manage the whole available resolution, obviously, but I'm guessing the Radeon does that? I'll see what I can find out-perhaps it has a direct HDMI output... Kenward -- In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be *teachers* and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. - Lee Iacocca _______________________________________________ Chimera-users mailing list Chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-users
On 07/30/2014 12:38 PM, Dougherty, Matthew T wrote:
(the contraction you were speaking about, Mathew?) Yes, little disorganized there. I had to go through corporate to let them know their S3D email address contact was bouncing. The size of the manufactures & models compared to 4 years ago is 10-20%. Dell tech support is not responding to direct questions about S3D on their laptops. Sales say all ok. Will find out when delivered. Generally in the industry, tech support is MIA when it deals with S3D.
One thing I have learned is that Dell (and other places, I'm sure) uses OEM packs of the Quadro cards. If you are getting the K4000 or K5000 variety, as in my case, they don't include a critical additional bracket that comes with the retail pack (from PNY). The use of nVidia's Vision system is impossible without that, and PNY won't sell you one. The tech support is from outer space when doing 3D, as you point out. Pays to carefully research the details...
can you send me more details as to nvidia and passive monitors? The vision pro is active usually with Acer monitors
Both the Vision Pro and Vision 2 systems are active. The gamer version is IR, the Pro is RF. Either can work in a crowded room, even the IR if you are careful about placement. The IR can be attenuated. I haven't seen anything saying the cards don't work with passive systems. I believe nVidia supports a number of approaches to 3D, not just their own system approach.
HDMI 1.4 safest position to own equipment. HD 1080p and future improvements will dominate the display industry. Intel builds chips around it.
I see conflicting opinions coming from the TV industry. Sony apparently is working hard to sell their 4K sets despite dire predictions about the state of 3D. Samsung seems to be well in it, too. I think it comes down to the lag in content and quality. ** Something about what Greg pointed to... using HDMI 1.4 causes a slowdown in frame rate to 24 fps due to hardware issues because of the standard. V2.0 basically ups the data rate to where you can get 60 fps, and what little I have seen asserts this is a hardware (not cable) limitation. V2.0 is supposed to be backwards compatible. Since Quadro cards like the K4/5000 use a simple after-card DVI-I to HDMI cable adapter, I am curious whether the card's output is up to the level of v2.0. I haven't checked other cards. Guess we have to wait for someone to plug their 3D PC into their v2.0 home theater system to find out...
Matthew Dougherty National Center for Macromolecular Imaging Baylor College of Medicine
Cheers, Kenward
From: chimera-users-bounces@cgl.ucsf.edu [chimera-users-bounces@cgl.ucsf.edu] On Behalf Of Kenward Vaughan [kay_jay@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 8:59 PM To: Greg Couch; chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu List Subject: Re: [Chimera-users] Setup for 3D workstations?
On 07/28/2014 12:01 PM, Greg Couch wrote:
For 3D stereo viewing in a lab with multiple systems viewing in stereo at the same time, you need to avoid using an infrared-based system. That means, either an active glasses setup with the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro that uses RF, or a passive glasses setup with a row-interleaved stereo monitor (the same glasses that are used for Reald 3D in movie theaters). The problem with row-interleaved monitors is that Chimera's 2D dialogs are hard to read when looking at the screen with the glasses, so I'd recommend the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro solution if you have the money. And, for Chimera, you will need a NVIDIA Quadro graphics card like the K4000 that you mentioned. See http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-professional-users.html for details.
I don't know of any 3D TVs that use RF to control active glasses, so there is no need to explore using 3D TVs, i.e., a HDMI solution is not for you (but for people setting up a single 3D stereo system, a great solution is a Windows 8 computer with an AMD Radeon w/HD3D graphics card, and a 3D TV).
HTH,
Greg
My thanks to both Mathew and you for your replies! After doing some further work on this, I believe I'll be going with the nVidia Pro setup for each station, as soon as I can verify that they are still being made (the contraction you were speaking about, Mathew?). The monitors I plan to get have multiple input types including HDMI-1.4, and work with passive systems as well (in case the Pro stuff dies).
I am also drooling over the idea of using a 3D capable TV (one of the newer 4K Sony's or the like, along with passive glasses for the whole class in a small class setting (i.e. not an auditorium). It turns the interleaved images into a normal HD image.
If I go that route, is there a reason to use the Radeon card as you mention above instead of the nVidia one? I would want to have things manage the whole available resolution, obviously, but I'm guessing the Radeon does that? I'll see what I can find out-perhaps it has a direct HDMI output...
Kenward -- In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be *teachers* and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. - Lee Iacocca
_______________________________________________ Chimera-users mailing list Chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-users
-- In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be *teachers* and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. - Lee Iacocca
On 07/29/2014 06:59 PM, Kenward Vaughan wrote:
On 07/28/2014 12:01 PM, Greg Couch wrote:
For 3D stereo viewing in a lab with multiple systems viewing in stereo at the same time, you need to avoid using an infrared-based system. That means, either an active glasses setup with the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro that uses RF, or a passive glasses setup with a row-interleaved stereo monitor (the same glasses that are used for Reald 3D in movie theaters). The problem with row-interleaved monitors is that Chimera's 2D dialogs are hard to read when looking at the screen with the glasses, so I'd recommend the NVIDIA 3D Vision Pro solution if you have the money. And, for Chimera, you will need a NVIDIA Quadro graphics card like the K4000 that you mentioned. See http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-professional-users.html for details.
I don't know of any 3D TVs that use RF to control active glasses, so there is no need to explore using 3D TVs, i.e., a HDMI solution is not for you (but for people setting up a single 3D stereo system, a great solution is a Windows 8 computer with an AMD Radeon w/HD3D graphics card, and a 3D TV).
HTH,
Greg
My thanks to both Mathew and you for your replies! After doing some further work on this, I believe I'll be going with the nVidia Pro setup for each station, as soon as I can verify that they are still being made (the contraction you were speaking about, Mathew?). The monitors I plan to get have multiple input types including HDMI-1.4, and work with passive systems as well (in case the Pro stuff dies).
I am also drooling over the idea of using a 3D capable TV (one of the newer 4K Sony's or the like, along with passive glasses for the whole class in a small class setting (i.e. not an auditorium). It turns the interleaved images into a normal HD image.
If I go that route, is there a reason to use the Radeon card as you mention above instead of the nVidia one? I would want to have things manage the whole available resolution, obviously, but I'm guessing the Radeon does that? I'll see what I can find out-perhaps it has a direct HDMI output...
Kenward
The problem with the current crop of 4K TVs is that you need a HDMI 2.0 connection from the graphics card to the TV to get a 60Hz instead of 30Hz refresh rate. Not all of the 4K TVs support HDMI 2.0, and some that do, don't support the higher speeds needed to do stereo. And then there's the problem that the current crop of graphics cards only support HDMI 1.4a. However, if the 4K TV has a DisplayPort interface, then it can work. This should change in a few years. Displays that use passive glasses, typically row-interlace the left- and right-eye images, so they are not good for reading Chimera's 2D dialogs, but are good for viewing 3D stereo -- good for demos but not for work. The best use of passive glasses is projected 3D stereo, like in a movie theater, where a special screen is used that reflects polarized light coherently -- a filter in front of the projector polarizes the image (active filter for a single projector, passive filters with two aligned projectors). The reason I mentioned the Windows 8 with an AMD Radeon and a 3D TV solution is because it is a great relatively inexpensive solution. You can get a Radeon that supports HDMI 1.4a, and Windows 8 supports "stereo in a window" where you can have 2D dialogs and 3D graphics windows side-by-side. On WIndows 7 and Linux that ability was reserved for workstation graphics cards, like the AMD FirePros and NVIDIA Quadros. Apple has dropped 3D stereo support in the current Mac Pros. And last I checked, 3D stereo with NVIDIA GeForce cards on Windows 8 only worked in full screen mode -- that is a NVIDIA graphics driver issue and things may have changed by now. Good luck! Greg
participants (3)
-
Dougherty, Matthew T -
Greg Couch -
Kenward Vaughan