Re: [chimerax-users] [Chimera-users] Stereo glasses
I'm always on the lookout for new options for 3D stereo display hardware (Chimera or Chimerax). I just saw this Asus system with glasses-free stereo, using eye-tracking cameras and a lenticular screen. It looks to me like a premium OLED laptop targeted to gamers and CAD designers. I'm unfamiliar with Asus Spatial Vision and Acer SpatialLabs, but one reviewer said that it works with multiple people viewing it- I'm slightly sceptical. :-) https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/asus-new-16-inch-workstation-laptops... Tom, you suggested that VR headsets were the best option a few years ago. What are your thoughts about this release? (Replies from non-Tom individuals are also welcomed.) Thanks! -Jonathan On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:32 PM Jonathan Sheehan <jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the information, Tom- I was hoping somebody had better news. It sounds like we're in a dead zone between the epochs of stereo glasses and VR headsets.
I suppose I'll have to start looking into VR systems.
Thanks, -Jonathan
On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 1:19 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote:
Hi Jonathan,
Nvidia was the main distributor of 3D active LCD stereo glasses, and they dropped support for their Nvidia 3D Vision glasses and emitters in April 2019 as described here
https://www.ghacks.net/2019/03/11/nvidia-3d-vision-end-of-support/
https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4781
Nvidia graphics driver released after April 2019 won't work with these glasses. You can continue to use Nvidia 3D Vision with old graphics drivers, maybe that is the best option.
The LCD active stereo glasses technology appears to be nearly dead. If you try to use it be prepared for problems getting it to work and to pay a lot of money. We have been using active stereo LCD with a stereo projector for many decades. We use it infrequently now, instead using virtual reality headsets with our ChimeraX software. Virtual reality headsets give better immersion but don't yet easily handle having a half-dozen people viewing the same scene in the same room (would require 6 separate computers driving the 6 headsets).
Here are details on the old LCD glasses projector system we are have which is working:
10 pairs of RealD CE4 and CE4s stereo glasses ($280 each)
http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/ce4s.html
A Stereo Graphics EXXR extra long range emitter ($780)
http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/exxr-emitter.html
A Christie Mirage S+4K projector circa 2006, (1440 x 1050 resolution), no longer in production
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Christie-Mirage_S+4K.htm
An Nvidia Quadro P6000 graphics card ($3700)
https://www.amazon.com/PNY-Quadro-P6000-Graphic-Card-x/dp/B01M0S2FKR
with a stereo emitter bracket
http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/c04658472.pdf
This system breaks about once a year after graphics driver updates, the fix usually being to set the projector to be either the primary display or secondary display (depends on graphics driver version). Also the glasses fail at maybe the rate of 1 out of 10 pairs per year.
Tom
On Jun 7, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Jonathan Sheehan <jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
What stereo setup are people recommending these days? It seems that NVIDIA has discontinued the 3D Vision 2 goggles+emitter. Is there something else that is available and works well?
Thanks for any advice! -Jonathan _______________________________________________ Chimera-users mailing list: Chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu Manage subscription: http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-users
I read that it is a lenticular display. So multiple viewers would be fine. Normally, to generate a 3D lenticular image you need lots of source images, at least 12 if I remember correctly. And I have a vague recollection that there was a 3D lenticulary display at SIGGRAPH many years ago that needed 24 source images. 3D stereo and VR only need 2 source images. So the computational requirements are probably significantly greater that for VR. And that means that the size of the 3D models you can view will be correspondingly smaller. Maybe the eye tracking can mitigate the extra computational needs. We need to learn more the API to say more. HTH, Greg On 1/6/2023 1:38 PM, Jonathan Sheehan via ChimeraX-users wrote:
I'm always on the lookout for new options for 3D stereo display hardware (Chimera or Chimerax). I just saw this Asus system with glasses-free stereo, using eye-tracking cameras and a lenticular screen. It looks to me like a premium OLED laptop targeted to gamers and CAD designers. I'm unfamiliar with Asus Spatial Vision and Acer SpatialLabs, but one reviewer said that it works with multiple people viewing it- I'm slightly sceptical. :-)
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/asus-new-16-inch-workstation-laptops...
Tom, you suggested that VR headsets were the best option a few years ago. What are your thoughts about this release? (Replies from non-Tom individuals are also welcomed.)
Thanks! -Jonathan
On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:32 PM Jonathan Sheehan <jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the information, Tom- I was hoping somebody had better news. It sounds like we're in a dead zone between the epochs of stereo glasses and VR headsets.
I suppose I'll have to start looking into VR systems.
Thanks, -Jonathan
On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 1:19 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote:
Hi Jonathan,
Nvidia was the main distributor of 3D active LCD stereo glasses, and they dropped support for their Nvidia 3D Vision glasses and emitters in April 2019 as described here
https://www.ghacks.net/2019/03/11/nvidia-3d-vision-end-of-support/
https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4781
Nvidia graphics driver released after April 2019 won't work with these glasses. You can continue to use Nvidia 3D Vision with old graphics drivers, maybe that is the best option.
The LCD active stereo glasses technology appears to be nearly dead. If you try to use it be prepared for problems getting it to work and to pay a lot of money. We have been using active stereo LCD with a stereo projector for many decades. We use it infrequently now, instead using virtual reality headsets with our ChimeraX software. Virtual reality headsets give better immersion but don't yet easily handle having a half-dozen people viewing the same scene in the same room (would require 6 separate computers driving the 6 headsets).
Here are details on the old LCD glasses projector system we are have which is working:
10 pairs of RealD CE4 and CE4s stereo glasses ($280 each)
http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/ce4s.html
A Stereo Graphics EXXR extra long range emitter ($780)
http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/exxr-emitter.html
A Christie Mirage S+4K projector circa 2006, (1440 x 1050 resolution), no longer in production
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Christie-Mirage_S+4K.htm
An Nvidia Quadro P6000 graphics card ($3700)
https://www.amazon.com/PNY-Quadro-P6000-Graphic-Card-x/dp/B01M0S2FKR
with a stereo emitter bracket
http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/c04658472.pdf
This system breaks about once a year after graphics driver updates, the fix usually being to set the projector to be either the primary display or secondary display (depends on graphics driver version). Also the glasses fail at maybe the rate of 1 out of 10 pairs per year.
Tom
On Jun 7, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Jonathan Sheehan <jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
What stereo setup are people recommending these days? It seems that NVIDIA has discontinued the 3D Vision 2 goggles+emitter. Is there something else that is available and works well?
Thanks for any advice! -Jonathan _______________________________________________ Chimera-users mailing list: Chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu Manage subscription: http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-users
ChimeraX-users mailing list ChimeraX-users@cgl.ucsf.edu Manage subscription: https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimerax-users
Hi Jonathan, I didn't find any technical descriptions of what 3D software will work with the Asus laptop lenticular display. I major downfall of this kind of autostereo display that requires no glasses is that software has to have special code to render to it. Here's an example of ChimeraX on a LookingGlass autostereo display where I wrote that special rendering code: https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/chimerax/data/lookingglass-july2020/ As Greg mentioned lenticular displays usually use vertical strips of pixels for your left eye and for your right eye. If the lenticular lens has 12 viewing directions then you get 1/12 pixels in each image so the resolution is much worse than the underlying flat panel display. Asus says they use eye tracking, so it may be that software only has to render two of those strips since it knows where your eyes are. But they say it can also work with two viewers, so maybe the 3D software needs to be able 4 views. If it can work with just two views then it might be able to handle 3D software that offers VR support or side-by-side stereo (it won't work with sequential stereo since the Nvidia RTX 4070 GPU in these laptops can't do sequential stereo). The only way to know how well it works with ChimeraX is to try it. If someone tries it please post a review on the ChimeraX mailing list. Be prepared for disappointment. The Asus marketing is full of deceptive hype -- almost every image shows some 3D model popping out of the laptop screen that is bigger than the screen. That is pure nonsense. Any 3D effect will be limited to the very small intersection of the two cones from your two eyes to the rectangular screen. Tom Example of the Asus dishonest marketing of the 3D laptop display. That figure popping out of the display would have to be 2 times smaller in order to fit in the overlap region between the viewer's eyes and the screen. 
On Jan 6, 2023, at 1:38 PM, Jonathan Sheehan via ChimeraX-users <chimerax-users@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
I'm always on the lookout for new options for 3D stereo display hardware (Chimera or Chimerax). I just saw this Asus system with glasses-free stereo, using eye-tracking cameras and a lenticular screen. It looks to me like a premium OLED laptop targeted to gamers and CAD designers. I'm unfamiliar with Asus Spatial Vision and Acer SpatialLabs, but one reviewer said that it works with multiple people viewing it- I'm slightly sceptical. :-)
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/asus-new-16-inch-workstation-laptops...
Tom, you suggested that VR headsets were the best option a few years ago. What are your thoughts about this release? (Replies from non-Tom individuals are also welcomed.)
Thanks! -Jonathan
On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:32 PM Jonathan Sheehan <jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com <mailto:jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks for the information, Tom- I was hoping somebody had better news. It sounds like we're in a dead zone between the epochs of stereo glasses and VR headsets.
I suppose I'll have to start looking into VR systems.
Thanks, -Jonathan
On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 1:19 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote:
Hi Jonathan,
Nvidia was the main distributor of 3D active LCD stereo glasses, and they dropped support for their Nvidia 3D Vision glasses and emitters in April 2019 as described here
https://www.ghacks.net/2019/03/11/nvidia-3d-vision-end-of-support/
https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4781
Nvidia graphics driver released after April 2019 won't work with these glasses. You can continue to use Nvidia 3D Vision with old graphics drivers, maybe that is the best option.
The LCD active stereo glasses technology appears to be nearly dead. If you try to use it be prepared for problems getting it to work and to pay a lot of money. We have been using active stereo LCD with a stereo projector for many decades. We use it infrequently now, instead using virtual reality headsets with our ChimeraX software. Virtual reality headsets give better immersion but don't yet easily handle having a half-dozen people viewing the same scene in the same room (would require 6 separate computers driving the 6 headsets).
Here are details on the old LCD glasses projector system we are have which is working:
10 pairs of RealD CE4 and CE4s stereo glasses ($280 each)
http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/ce4s.html
A Stereo Graphics EXXR extra long range emitter ($780)
http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/exxr-emitter.html
A Christie Mirage S+4K projector circa 2006, (1440 x 1050 resolution), no longer in production
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Christie-Mirage_S+4K.htm
An Nvidia Quadro P6000 graphics card ($3700)
https://www.amazon.com/PNY-Quadro-P6000-Graphic-Card-x/dp/B01M0S2FKR
with a stereo emitter bracket
http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/c04658472.pdf
This system breaks about once a year after graphics driver updates, the fix usually being to set the projector to be either the primary display or secondary display (depends on graphics driver version). Also the glasses fail at maybe the rate of 1 out of 10 pairs per year.
Tom
On Jun 7, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Jonathan Sheehan <jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
What stereo setup are people recommending these days? It seems that NVIDIA has discontinued the 3D Vision 2 goggles+emitter. Is there something else that is available and works well?
Thanks for any advice! -Jonathan _______________________________________________ Chimera-users mailing list: Chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu Manage subscription: http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-users
_______________________________________________ ChimeraX-users mailing list ChimeraX-users@cgl.ucsf.edu <mailto:ChimeraX-users@cgl.ucsf.edu> Manage subscription: https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimerax-users
Here is a video using ChimeraX with the LookingGlass autostereo display combined with hand tracking. https://twitter.com/ucsfchimerax/status/1285435087236915201 The effect is cool, but it is more a gimmick than something useful. At best the Asus laptop lenticular display will be able to do as well as the old LCD shutter glasses, only without the glasses that. That could be pretty nice except 1) the resolution will likely be much worse than shutter glasses which offered the full screen resolution to each eye, and 2) software will need custom support for the Asus laptop and few if any software developers can spend the time to add that support when so few people will use it. Tom 
On Jan 6, 2023, at 3:35 PM, Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote:
Hi Jonathan,
I didn't find any technical descriptions of what 3D software will work with the Asus laptop lenticular display. I major downfall of this kind of autostereo display that requires no glasses is that software has to have special code to render to it. Here's an example of ChimeraX on a LookingGlass autostereo display where I wrote that special rendering code:
https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/chimerax/data/lookingglass-july2020/
As Greg mentioned lenticular displays usually use vertical strips of pixels for your left eye and for your right eye. If the lenticular lens has 12 viewing directions then you get 1/12 pixels in each image so the resolution is much worse than the underlying flat panel display. Asus says they use eye tracking, so it may be that software only has to render two of those strips since it knows where your eyes are. But they say it can also work with two viewers, so maybe the 3D software needs to be able 4 views. If it can work with just two views then it might be able to handle 3D software that offers VR support or side-by-side stereo (it won't work with sequential stereo since the Nvidia RTX 4070 GPU in these laptops can't do sequential stereo).
The only way to know how well it works with ChimeraX is to try it. If someone tries it please post a review on the ChimeraX mailing list. Be prepared for disappointment. The Asus marketing is full of deceptive hype -- almost every image shows some 3D model popping out of the laptop screen that is bigger than the screen. That is pure nonsense. Any 3D effect will be limited to the very small intersection of the two cones from your two eyes to the rectangular screen.
Tom
Example of the Asus dishonest marketing of the 3D laptop display. That figure popping out of the display would have to be 2 times smaller in order to fit in the overlap region between the viewer's eyes and the screen. <ASUS unveils glasses-free 3D OLED laptops at CES 2023.jpeg>
On Jan 6, 2023, at 1:38 PM, Jonathan Sheehan via ChimeraX-users <chimerax-users@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
I'm always on the lookout for new options for 3D stereo display hardware (Chimera or Chimerax). I just saw this Asus system with glasses-free stereo, using eye-tracking cameras and a lenticular screen. It looks to me like a premium OLED laptop targeted to gamers and CAD designers. I'm unfamiliar with Asus Spatial Vision and Acer SpatialLabs, but one reviewer said that it works with multiple people viewing it- I'm slightly sceptical. :-)
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/asus-new-16-inch-workstation-laptops...
Tom, you suggested that VR headsets were the best option a few years ago. What are your thoughts about this release? (Replies from non-Tom individuals are also welcomed.)
Thanks! -Jonathan
On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:32 PM Jonathan Sheehan <jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com <mailto:jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks for the information, Tom- I was hoping somebody had better news. It sounds like we're in a dead zone between the epochs of stereo glasses and VR headsets.
I suppose I'll have to start looking into VR systems.
Thanks, -Jonathan
On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 1:19 PM Tom Goddard <goddard@sonic.net> wrote:
Hi Jonathan,
Nvidia was the main distributor of 3D active LCD stereo glasses, and they dropped support for their Nvidia 3D Vision glasses and emitters in April 2019 as described here
https://www.ghacks.net/2019/03/11/nvidia-3d-vision-end-of-support/
https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4781
Nvidia graphics driver released after April 2019 won't work with these glasses. You can continue to use Nvidia 3D Vision with old graphics drivers, maybe that is the best option.
The LCD active stereo glasses technology appears to be nearly dead. If you try to use it be prepared for problems getting it to work and to pay a lot of money. We have been using active stereo LCD with a stereo projector for many decades. We use it infrequently now, instead using virtual reality headsets with our ChimeraX software. Virtual reality headsets give better immersion but don't yet easily handle having a half-dozen people viewing the same scene in the same room (would require 6 separate computers driving the 6 headsets).
Here are details on the old LCD glasses projector system we are have which is working:
10 pairs of RealD CE4 and CE4s stereo glasses ($280 each)
http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/ce4s.html
A Stereo Graphics EXXR extra long range emitter ($780)
http://www.colorlinkjapan.com/brand/product/exxr-emitter.html
A Christie Mirage S+4K projector circa 2006, (1440 x 1050 resolution), no longer in production
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Christie-Mirage_S+4K.htm
An Nvidia Quadro P6000 graphics card ($3700)
https://www.amazon.com/PNY-Quadro-P6000-Graphic-Card-x/dp/B01M0S2FKR
with a stereo emitter bracket
http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/c04658472.pdf
This system breaks about once a year after graphics driver updates, the fix usually being to set the projector to be either the primary display or secondary display (depends on graphics driver version). Also the glasses fail at maybe the rate of 1 out of 10 pairs per year.
Tom
On Jun 7, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Jonathan Sheehan <jonathan.sheehan@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
What stereo setup are people recommending these days? It seems that NVIDIA has discontinued the 3D Vision 2 goggles+emitter. Is there something else that is available and works well?
Thanks for any advice! -Jonathan _______________________________________________ Chimera-users mailing list: Chimera-users@cgl.ucsf.edu Manage subscription: http://plato.cgl.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimera-users
_______________________________________________ ChimeraX-users mailing list ChimeraX-users@cgl.ucsf.edu <mailto:ChimeraX-users@cgl.ucsf.edu> Manage subscription: https://www.rbvi.ucsf.edu/mailman/listinfo/chimerax-users
participants (3)
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Greg Couch -
Jonathan Sheehan -
Tom Goddard